The book “The Russian Myth” reveals the 800-year history of Moscow not as a state or civilization, but as a parasitic corporation, an intermediary between colonies and global hegemons. Through the prism of systemic cycles of capital accumulation by Giovanni Arrighi, the author proves that all tectonic shifts in Moscow’s history from its creation to 2022 correlate with changes in hegemony. This is a large-scale systemic work, written in an extraordinarily accessible way, which demonstrates the true place of Russia in the 800-year global economy.

– Oleg, the first thought that arises after reading the book is your thesis that Russia is not a state or civilization. Viewers might simply say: “Well, maybe it’s just such a state.” What do you put into the concept of a state?

In any case, a state is a structure built around some idea and the development of this state. Russia is not a developing state, it constantly functions on the edge of a foul. What we can now see in the development of this state, all its potential is now directed only at developing military culture. What they do, everything they invest, they create new production facilities for manufacturing weapons. They don’t actually develop the state itself, develop their infrastructure, don’t develop science, don’t develop any of those directions that are necessary for the state itself to develop and flourish.

We don’t see that for which states should exist at all — so that every person, every citizen of this state feels cared for, that this state is their state, that they are connected to this state, that this is their mother in the end. But we see that this is not about Russia at all. I cannot say that even one Russian can say that this country cares about them. Formally we see what seem to be features of a state, but in fact no. This is not a state.

– When reading the book, a thought immediately arises: 800 years of this history, and it’s surprising that you approached this so systematically. Were there any attempts to change this situation? Because probably, political elites somehow realized where they were in the global economy. Did at least someone try to break out of this cycle?

There were constantly cycles, changes. We can say that not everyone actually understood what was happening, and there was a desire to somehow join, become connected to the civilized world. In particular, Catherine the First did this. Before developing and implementing this Greek project, she really wanted to build a wonderful state there that would be an example for all European states. But then they approached her, I don’t know who exactly. There is an opinion that it was still representatives of British capital. And they proposed a completely different model, or Dutch capital. Actually it was more of a Dutch period. They proposed a model through which she completely changed her plans and started precisely with the capture of Crimea to develop the Greek project with the annexation of Constantinople, its return to Russia, the return of Greece to Russia.

But in fact, again, this is an economic project. Russia at that time simply wanted to expand its influence more in trade, to push Turkey out of the Black Sea. What we saw was a battle of two, seemingly not yet heard hegemons at that time, but in fact it was.

Again, what is called the Time of Troubles, when several times they tried to occupy Moscow’s throne with people with quite interesting European views. And again, the system saved itself through British money, where they actually poured into these troops, into these so-called people’s rebellions of insurgents. Well, this was all done with British money, because they didn’t want to lose an insanely profitable resource, so that a master wouldn’t appear there and shut off their tap.

Again, let’s return to Peter the First. There were some first attempts of this western drift, but then he again changed plans. The impression is that in the first year or two they try to do something when they come to power, and then again they return to this madhouse of the Third Rome. This is just some kind of schizophrenia. They believe in this messianism somehow, that they are chosen by God. And when they immerse themselves in this fanatical, religious delirium, everything breaks.

And, by the way, even such an attempt to overthrow the Soviet Union, when in the 17th year they tried to change something, at the beginning they also drifted away from this Third Rome system. And not even 10 years passed and everything started again. They seem to go in circles and cannot break this circle, because every time they try to create something new, the Third Rome comes out again.

– In the book you approach religion so utilitarianly, as a tool. Didn’t this worldview, these religious patterns, lead them in circles?

Let’s be honest, and even today religion is considered one of the foundations that recognizes the legitimacy of this or that power. Any power first turns to some religious institutions that confirm its legality, and as if the desire to rule this country. We can even look at the United States of America, when Trump came to power, the first contacts were literally with the Pope. Well, that’s normal.

And let’s proceed from the fact that religious institutions are the first global institutions that were able to act as a foundation for the civilization we now see. Our civilization is built on Christian ethics, on Christian standards, approaches, rules, paradigms. And you can’t move away from religion. Another thing is that we need to understand that religion is not just a teaching about communication with God and all that. This is a certain set of laws, this is a certain culture of communication. This is a certain trading culture, again.

I believe that the first religious attempts appeared through the need to organize courts, to resolve trade disputes. And through that this knowledge began to spread from Babylon gradually in the east, where it was most in demand. Precisely because it was necessary to regulate these trade routes, processes, relationships.

If we look at the Torah, there is quite a significant piece of this book that deals with trade issues. If we take Russkaya Pravda, it’s also not a religious document, but in fact it’s a code of laws related to trade. Without religions, in fact, until the mid-19th century, our civilization could not exist separated or detached.

– There’s just an interesting detail here. I researched the question of religion in general. My test is that in Russia it’s generally not Orthodoxy. There are people like this Andrei Kuraev, who said that inside the church we have sectarianism living for centuries, which is in no way connected with Christianity…

The problems here lie in the fact that this religious school built in Moscow differs completely from all schools that exist in the civilized world. This is, if we say, the basis of European Christianity, when everyone says, for example, Constantinople is Rome, it’s more Rome after all, because Rome is legislation. And they, through their strict enough legislation for those times, built a fairly large empire.

And Moscow constantly associated itself not as Rome, but as anti-Rome. You do it this way, no, we will do it differently. Our path is different. You go right, we go left. That’s it, great. We chose our path. Why? Because we’re not like that.

I haven’t found a single proof that Moscow’s religion is correct and Roman is wrong. And if we look at all these historical myths, they themselves take their origin from Rome. Ivan the Terrible, he traced his genealogy precisely from Octavian Augustus, not from any other monarch there. He liked it that way. I believe this is really some kind of schizophrenia, because looking for justification in the thousand-year history of another state in order to justify your crimes in your state, well, this is nonsense.

– And it’s interesting that you describe how they supported Pugachev’s rebellion. It’s the 1650s, Nikon’s reform, a religious schism occurs. And you describe that Pugachev was supported by Ural entrepreneurs, local peoples. These are the Old Believers…

The banking structure as such, in general, we can say arose precisely then, when the role of the church fell a little. If the first banks were in the 10th century, then until that moment the church had a monopoly. A monopoly on banking activities. I even read somewhere that the Moscow church, they left the Sarai because they were no longer allowed to collect taxes. They were told: “Stop, sorry, we have Islamic territory here.” And you’re collecting your parishioners and generally raising issues, taxes.

Perhaps we don’t fully understand this tithe, that this tithe was collected not for the church, but for the state. I haven’t fully clarified this point, but in any case we see that the church was the institution, the only institution in the state, which could not just collect, but count and preserve these capitals. There are all these royal treasuries, all this appeared later. And the first bank is the Genoese bank. This is the 10th century or the end of the 14th.

We can say that the Old Believer school is something connected with this, perhaps, I assume, this oligarchy that existed at the level of Novgorod and which was destroyed precisely in those times. Perhaps because, if we look at the end of the Russian Empire, the largest merchants and those who had money in the Russian Empire were Old Believers. This is a fact. They preserved this protocol among themselves, by which they exchanged. Again, banks are not just about money, they’re about trust.

– You mentioned Novgorod very interestingly. The grandfather of Ivan the Terrible, who captured Novgorod, suppressed it, he was then connected with the so-called sect of Judaizers…

Novgorod is such a small northern Venice and the Veche there was actually people who were trade people. These are merchants who were there, who lived there. They hired those same princes for protection. They determined the city’s development. And this was actually not even a city, a huge market, a trading post.

When Ivan the Third came to destroy it, we need to remember why he did it. And he did it because at that moment the Venetians gave Moscow the theory of the Third Rome. They said: “Come on, we’ll probably now include you in our community, we’ll marry you to the daughter of the Constantinople emperor Sophia Paleologus.” And you will not just be equal, you will become the heir of the Constantinople Empire. And he already believed in this. He didn’t even actually understand that he needed to check the facts, that she was not connected, that she had no relation to this throne. He took this woman for himself and took the coat of arms, took practically the entire theory of the Third Rome. That’s where it all started.

And after that, when he received support, money, theory, the first thing he did was destroy one of Venice’s major competitors, Novgorod. He destroyed it. What remained there afterwards was a pathetic copy, a parody.

– And this Metropolitan of Kyiv, whom Kalita lures away, even historians of the Russian Orthodox Church write that he lures away this Greek who was greedy for gold…

I believe you are mistaken regarding the role of princes in state governance. Honestly, first, they didn’t have enough education and understanding of state functions to solve such complex issues. I believe they were rather such military leaders of the state, no more.

And this decision to move the capital from Vladimir to Moscow, there in 1325, it’s not at all connected with Kalita deciding this. Kalita received rather a gift from the church, because a phrase arose for me: “The church follows the caravan.” They go where there is more money. They looked and said stop. Moscow now brings more funds, and it’s better protected. Why are we sitting in Vladimir? What are we doing here? Just like it was in Kyiv at the end of the 10th century. What are we doing here? All the routes have now moved to the Volga, and we’re sitting in Kyiv. Why? Stop. Let’s get up, let’s go to Vladimir. Vladimir is good, Moscow is even better. They moved to Moscow.

– It turns out that they really picked up this Paleologus, brought Sophia, although she had relatives there and someone, if I’m not mistaken, sold the right to be Byzantine…

Two brothers, Andrei and Mikhail, they sold, one sold his right to the throne to Bayazid, this Ottoman sultan, and the other sold to the Habsburgs. Yes, this is a fact.

And regarding Venice, interestingly, its rapid development actually began when they built the Arsenal. This is such a technologically revolutionary step that I can’t even say who did something more important at that time. They managed to make a conveyor on which they assembled almost an entire ship in a day. They built this galley with crazy speed because they produced some part at each specific stage. This was done simply so revolutionary for that time that no one could manage to do something similar.

– There was just a very interesting thought here, because I never rethought this prism of world hegemony restructuring that occurs at the beginning of the 20th century. And the situation turns out that let there be the Soviet Union and so on, supposedly some enemy opponent. But on the other hand, this is an outlet precisely for capital…

Well, you’re saying everything correctly. If we look at industrialization, this was all done with American money. This was all done to reanimate the American economy. If there hadn’t been industrialization, the decline of the USA would have occurred precisely in these times. And this huge project, it was actually military. We can understand that one way or another, but the United States, they contributed to Soviet Russia turning into a certain hegemon only in Europe. And without the investments that then came to Soviet Russia, it wouldn’t exist at all.

And again we will remember that the Holodomor and everything else, these are all consequences of this operation, when Russia needed to settle accounts with the United States, what could it pay with, only grain. And that people died there, well, this is not a problem for Russia. They didn’t count anyone. This is the same resource as grain, as all these minerals.

Let’s be honest, people don’t consider it necessary to worry about the fate of other people. If this brings insane profits, why not? I think that people who invested money in this Soviet Russia and knew that this grain that was coming cost millions of lives, they didn’t think much about it. They didn’t see this death. They didn’t see what the same Ukraine turned into thanks to this. They saw percentages, they saw income on their stocks, and this made them happy. Why not?

– And in the book you lead to the fact that today this system, when Russia was needed, it broke down completely. Russia is becoming unnecessary.

There’s an interesting point here. I just now believe that the world economy has gone into a penalty lap. Arrighi has a point that somewhere in the 80s of that century there was a moment when the center of capital should have moved to Japan. Everything contributed to this. Japan was on the rise and the Americans didn’t let this happen. They actually stopped this moment. And after that, all these years, how many, 50 years have passed, they are trying somehow to keep the center of financial hegemony in the United States.

But what is happening now, we see that everything leads to the fact that constantly crisis follows crisis. And we can even say that now there is constantly a crisis economy, it has become a trend. And one way or another, if we continue to keep this center in the United States, if we try to maintain a constant crisis economy, this will lead to the whole world breaking down, the world economy will break down. And here we need to sacrifice something.

In my opinion, the best way would be to sacrifice Russia, because this model is really great for capital, because Russia is an ideal concentration camp that helps there for pennies, for maintaining these colonial territories to extract insanely profitable resources, minerals, oil, all this gas. But how much will this simply contribute to the development of all our world, our civilization. I don’t think this is the right path.

My opinion is that it will be necessary to sacrifice Russia precisely because the model needs to be changed, returned and healed. Perhaps this crisis is necessary just as Constantinople had to fall in its time. The Osmanы could have left these trade routes, but they decided not to do this. Likewise now, if we refuse oil and gas, move to all these new technologies, this is quite a cool, right step, because it will help humanity step over this problem earlier.

– Here a challenge arises before Russia, conditionally speaking. There is capital. But corruption eats half of this capital, no matter what you try to restructure. And how to somehow support it. Additional resources are needed. Here immediately the question of logistics. Ukraine is such a crossroads…

From the point of view of a rational owner, there is no rational economic thought in Russia as such. In fact, what has been happening there all these years is minimization, minimization of the use of these territories. They never invested, well, only during Soviet times at all in the development of these territories. Not at all. They only pumped out everything that could be: gold, oil, gas, but never invested in development.

And this is a normal process from the point of view of capitalist economics. If we consider that this is a separate country that is developing there, that is trying to do something, this is a catastrophe. If we consider that this is really a resource appendage that is not needed within the framework of the world economy, then Russia is developing very well. Well, because operating costs have fallen to zero, the wage fund, there really, pennies in these territories. And what it does, it pumps out resources. From this point of view, it can exist for some more time, but as a normal economy no.

One of the ideas is that this war generally started from the fact that they accumulated too much money that couldn’t be returned to the economy. Precisely because returning to the economy, it was necessary to invest them all these roads, schools, hospitals, but this is not needed. We see that everything that is being done in Russia now, this is actually everything that leads to a decrease in the number of people. Hospitals are closing, through closing hospitals there people live less, don’t live to retirement. They actually like some slaves work out their life at their enterprise, die and everything is fine. Well, if they didn’t have time to go to some war.

– Russia simply due to this centuries-old, centuries-old economic model, when people are used simply as a resource, this model simply cannot exist. Russia cannot provide a normal standard of living…

I just believe, why do I generally believe that it will fall apart, through the fact that the question of efficiency and rationality of using this resource base still remains. And these corporations that see how all this is being developed, they believe that everything can be made more efficient. Perhaps precisely because now there is talk about certain Chinese advances into Siberian territory and all that. These are all variants of event development that one way or another don’t see Russia in the future, because the model is outdated actually. These models, they could exist in the 17th century. It existed for two extra centuries. Something needs to be done about this.

And this is a moment when the world economy must decide whether this Russia is needed at all or not. Because let’s even look at what Russia has that the world doesn’t have, nothing. In fact, both oil and gas, all this is in abundance in other countries. Rare earth there, all the rest, all this exists. There is nothing that Russia now differs in. And from this point of view, even these sanctions that were imposed, this is also a kind of test, how capable the world is of being without Russia.

You can look at this scheme so intelligently and understand that it was built precisely to withdraw these monies from Germany for Russian gas. There was no economy in this process. This was deliberately through this green energy, how they closed these nuclear power plants there, which are very efficient. They invented a lot that helped Russians sell an insane amount of gas to Europe.

Again, we return to the fact that economic rationality must be. And no matter how inhuman these capitalist sharks are, they won’t just throw around their money like that. And Russia now is an inefficient economy in general.