2 February, 19:44
Mykola Melnyk — a veteran, lawyer, and a man who changes the lives of his brothers-in-arms every day. In this conversation, he shares his experience on how Ukrainians are treated in the U.S. and what lessons we should take from it. We discuss corruption, the adaptation of military personnel, veteran support, and the need for unity without political games. "The only currency in the army is respect," says Mykola. And this phrase perfectly defines the essence of his views on how we can move the country forward together.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: Well, shall we begin?
Mykola Melnyk: Let’s go.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: We haven’t recorded an interview since the fall of 2023.
Mykola Melnyk: That’s right.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: During this time, as far as I know, you were in the land of dreams – America.
Mykola Melnyk: Well, whose dreams? But yes, I was there.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: Well, consider it the whole world’s dreamland since America is generally seen that way. And what really interests us… since you’ve been there, how do people in America feel about Ukraine now? Positively or negatively? After almost three years of war, how have Americans’ opinions about Ukraine changed?
Mykola Melnyk: It’s quite difficult to assess how opinions have shifted over three years since I haven’t lived there for that long. But overall, the feedback from Americans about Ukrainians is positive. Why? Because, first and foremost, a Ukrainian is perceived as someone who is currently fighting against the Russians. And in general, if we exclude radical Marxists-Leninists, American society is still largely patriotic. They remember old narratives that remain relevant today—that Russia is an enemy, and that will never change. So yes, they see us as fighting for democracy worldwide, and they understand this. There are, of course, debates—some believe peace should come through victory, while others just want the killing to stop. But I haven’t heard a single opinion suggesting that the U.S. should stop helping Ukraine or leave it to face Russia alone. No, American society is quite united on this issue. However, the narrative that Ukraine’s government is corrupt does seriously harm advocacy for Ukraine’s interests in Washington.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: Here, it's often said that calling our government corrupt is just Russian propaganda. Is that how this information is perceived in the U.S., or do they recognize it as a real problem that we, unfortunately, haven’t been able to overcome since Maidan?
Mykola Melnyk: You don’t understand — if Ukrainian officials didn’t flaunt their expensive watches, which their salaries clearly wouldn’t legally afford, maybe the American establishment would think differently. Don’t assume they’re fools who can be easily deceived. They might believe something the first time, but the second time, they’ll pay attention to the details. Their intelligence works well, their communication channels are strong. They know very well where the Russian narrative is present, and they acknowledge that. The idea that Ukraine is "totally corrupt"—that’s a Russian narrative. But to say that there’s no corruption in Ukraine? Sorry, I don’t know anyone who would believe that.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: So we’ve overcome it, suppressed it…
Mykola Melnyk: Overcome it, suppressed it, driven it underground? Well, the public doesn’t see that happening yet. Our law enforcement agencies are actively working on exposing corruption, and they’ve had some success in that regard. But then comes the issue of enforcement. If in 2017, we caught a top military psychologist taking a bribe of $40,000, and in 2025, we catch someone taking a million dollars, then we clearly have problems with law enforcement and the anti-corruption system. It’s obvious that Americans have a pretty clear and realistic view of our situation.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: But do Americans actually see Ukraine as a country separate from Russia? Or do they still think of it as part of the Russian Empire that just decided to become independent? Do they distinguish between our countries?
Mykola Melnyk: Look, I haven’t met anyone who believes Ukraine is part of Russia’s geopolitical space. I haven’t encountered such people. But I also can’t say they don’t exist. In Ukraine, we have some of those types too — they usually vote for pro-Russian political parties. They’re contained within a certain electoral niche where, thankfully, they’re not multiplying. But, of course, America is a country of pluralistic opinions. You’ll find people there who even deny the existence of the United States itself and want to establish their own little kingdom on an isolated island in the middle of a lake. There are always extremists and fools. But 99% of the people I spoke with — mostly military personnel, advocates, or those with strong pro-Ukrainian positions — never even considered the idea that Ukraine could return to Russia’s geopolitical influence.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: I’m also curious about American society’s attitude toward the military and, specifically, Ukrainian soldiers. How do they see us?
Mykola Melnyk: Well, first of all, they don’t really differentiate much. If you’re a soldier, they’ll thank you for your service. If you’re in uniform, they’ll thank you for your service. If you’re in a wheelchair, you will see them, their eyes full of love for your nation and hatred for its enemies, people will come up and thank you for your service. But the true respect isn’t just in words. It’s reflected in the inclusivity of their architecture and their daily practices. And I have to say, Ukraine is probably a century away from reaching that level. That said, the future is in our hands.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: Is this a cultural issue, or is it just a lack of money?
Mykola Melnyk: It’s a cultural issue. American society is convinced that they must care for and show the utmost respect to those who fought for their nation. In Ukraine, until 2022, the general attitude from society to soldiers was, “We didn’t send you there.” For example, I met one idiot in New York—by the way, he was involved in the SafeFOP (Ukrainian civil movement whose members advocate for entrepreneurs' rights) — who once told me that people like me, those who fight for the country, interfere with business. We prevent deals with the Russians. But when the war started, guess how things turned out? I picked up a rifle again, and I met him in New York. But here’s the catch — I had lost part of my legs, while he looked quite well-fed and comfortable. Just a little side note. I don’t know what our society will look like in a year. Right now, I see an understanding of this problem within civil society, which thankfully exists in Ukraine. The state’s stance remains unclear. As for businesses—honestly, they seem more indifferent than supportive. Let’s be real: in Kyiv, the majority of restaurants still don’t have accessible entrances. At government offices, it’s about 40%. This problem is deeply rooted, but I really hope that through the efforts of veterans and volunteers, we can start making real changes.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: Listen, how did you see the support for veterans and people with disabilities in the USA? Is it more of a business, the state, or the community?
Mykola Melnyk: Not "disabled people," but "people with disabilities."
Oleh Cheslavskyi: My apologies.
Mykola Melnyk: Secondly, if someone finds out that you disrespected veterans, it will be over for you. That person, sooner or later, will lose their position, no matter how high it is. It’s a national religion. What do we see in Ukraine? A small fraction of the population genuinely respects veterans. Most people look away, perhaps because they don’t know how to react properly. That’s something we need to work on. We have no right to judge these people.
But there is also a rather radical segment of society that considers itself an elite, the true aristocracy, for whom others should fight while they sit back. They call it the "economic front," using loopholes to avoid taxes, drinking their macchiatos and smoothies, making trendy blogs and reels. TikTok has severely affected the impressionable minds of our youth. And these people see themselves as the nation's elite. In reality, they are just hiding behind the backs of soldiers.
Of course, everyone has their own role. But without creating a total culture of respect for the soldier and veteran, nothing in this country will change for the better. The worst thing the state can do is treat those who fought for it in a merely formal way.
Let me explain quickly. In the army, aside from fuel, the only real currency is respect. You must treat everyone with respect to receive respect in return. The same applies here in civilian life. If people treat us without respect, fine — we can return the favor in a way we see fit. And that response might not be to their liking.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: When you returned to Ukraine, did you notice a change in public opinion about the war? Does it seem like people are losing interest?
Mykola Melnyk: No, things have actually gotten worse since January. After President Volodymyr Zelensky started calling himself just a "citizen" instead of the commander-in-chief. After he said that those who went AWOL are not criminals but simply tired. It became clear that he was trying to appeal to the electorate, but this has very negative consequences, especially for morale.
Every soldier who didn’t flee, who is still in the trenches with a rifle, started asking themselves: “Then who am I? I’m tired too. But I understand my responsibility, while others don’t.”
Of course, individual cases of moral breakdown or conflicts with leadership exist, and they make up a significant percentage. But I wouldn’t say they exceed a quarter or a fifth of the total. That means three-quarters of them simply ran away, they explain it in this way: "We weren’t trained, they’re shooting there, it’s dark, it’s cold, our commanders are idiots," and so on and so forth. And maybe that’s all true. But here’s the real issue — on February 25, 2022, nobody was trained. Three years have passed—plenty of time to learn. No excuses.
Of course, sometimes there are stupid orders on the battlefield. But still.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: I’m curious about your opinion on the potential of the veteran movement in politics. I understand that, unfortunately, without money, you have no chance in politics.
Mykola Melnyk: I think every political force will try to create veteran movements. The worst thing that can happen is if veterans start forming purely for political purposes. But the power elites will try to control everything.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: So, in your opinion, the first thing veterans need to do is unite?
Mykola Melnyk: Look, uniting should be about ideas. You need to communicate and cooperate with everyone. But if someone comes to me tomorrow and says, "We’re a cool veteran movement, we’re funded by that political camp, let’s work together," I’ll refuse. Because those are people already operating within a certain political framework. I don’t want to be just a cover for them.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: The reason I’m so concerned about this issue is that I don’t see any veteran organization today that is truly flexible. I don’t see a movement that is independent.
Right now, everything in the veteran movement is, unfortunately, tied to some political or financial power center. But I don’t see a movement that truly stands by the veterans themselves.
Mykola Melnyk: I'm not ready to say, I think the key phrase here is "I don't see." I wouldn’t speak for everyone because I only recently arrived in Kyiv. Then I spent time at the Military Medical Commission. Then there were issues with being discharged, so it's quite difficult to say — whether such movements exist or not. Let’s put it this way: the key point is that I haven’t seen them.
Now, what is needed for such movements to emerge? Nothing can be done without funding. Yes, of course, you should never do a job that you wouldn’t be willing to do for free. Veterans can work for a day, two, three, maybe a couple of months. But eventually, they need to eat. And if there’s no work, if there’s no salary for chat managers, all of this will collapse very quickly—no matter how good the intentions are, whether one likes it or not.
So I think that until there is some institutional support from the state or businesses—while maintaining certain moral boundaries—nothing will change. By moral boundaries, I mean: it’s fine if you want to support the veteran movement, but don’t think that I owe you something. That’s your civic stance. Help if you want, no problem. But don’t expect anything in return.
I am against veterans getting involved again in situations like the so-called "quartz armies," protecting certain politicians or defending someone's business—no, that's over. This chapter must be closed.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: But it will happen, you understand that we will…
Mykola Melnyk: It will happen, it’s inevitable, but we must not move toward it. Because right now, the potential is very strong. It exists, and it must not be wasted.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: Will you personally move in this direction?
Mykola Melnyk: I am already moving in this direction. It so happened that I am forced to take care of my former comrades from morning till night. Some may be former comrades, though I believe there are no former comrades. One has a problem, another has a different issue — someone needs employment, another needs advice, someone needs help with payments.
My background as a lawyer helps—I can write most of the applications myself. Additionally, my communication with parliament is quite strong. I am also the head of the NGO "League of Interns," an organization that arranges internships in parliament.
By leveraging these connections, we can provide assistance. But so far, it's not systematic. Of course, I want to move towards a systematic approach, ensuring that veterans—and soldiers too, because, excuse me, soldiers also need protection.
Right now, we are all focused on veterans, but we forget about soldiers. And soldiers — especially infantry, assault troops, airborne troops are the least protected. For me, they are all part of the same large infantry force. I don’t mean to offend anyone, but they are the ones most in need. They also have rights, and we need to talk about these rights.
Of course, everything must remain within the legal framework and military regulations. But if help is needed with payments, then it must be provided. If a veteran or soldier is unaware of their right to certain benefits, they must be informed and assisted in obtaining them.
We need to create support centers and provide grants for education—especially non-repayable grants for the children of our fallen heroes.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: That’s a great idea.
Mykola Melnyk: Well, that's the direction we need to move in. For example, this year, my comrades and I managed to pay for the education of the daughter of one of our fallen brothers. Because we knew that he would have wanted that.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: "My comrades and I"—who exactly?
Mykola Melnyk: Well, USDF —Ukrainian Self-Defense Forces. We made the decision, found the money, and chipped in. It wasn’t a huge sum, but it made a difference to that person.
You know, a lot will start to change in politics when people begin thinking about the long-term consequences. I know that in the end, I will be in heaven. And there, I will either be greeted with kind words or a club. And I have no intention of getting hit with a club after death.
But this philosophy needs to be instilled.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: I still wanted to ask you about organization. If veterans and soldiers really need to unite their efforts, in what format can this be done now and in the future?
Mykola Melnyk: Veterans and soldiers unite according to statutory norms. We are also talking about defending their rights. But under what cause should they unite? To protect their rights? Fine, then we need to clearly articulate which rights we are fighting for and what we lack.
I think this needs to be discussed. Because everyone knows about LGBT rights — even every cat and that stray dog. But when it comes to veterans' rights, people vaguely remember, "Oh, maybe they have everything already? We’re giving them some payments, right? What more do they need?"
In reality, we need to think about providing additional privileges—not just material benefits, but also non-material ones.
Additionally, there needs to be a mechanism for internal self-regulation within the veteran community. Because we all know: "This guy has no pictures on Facebook, but he actually fought. That one has a thousand and one TikToks — his comrades say he sat at the command post, came down to the trenches to film a TikTok, and left." We all know how it works. This guy received his Golden Cross for the right reasons. And this one was just a driver for the brigade commander." On the one hand, we need unity. But on the other, we must be honest with each other. Yes, we are one big family, but every family has its Abel and its Cain.
First, we need a clear understanding of what we, as veterans, consider fair. This applies to awards and many other things.
Second, we need a dialogue and a clear understanding of what we recognize as fairness and respect toward veterans.
Third, we need meaningful advocacy and communication with the state.
I am against forcing everyone into one big organization. We are Ukrainians—we always try to create our own group. I think the idea of "neighborhood elders" would work here too—each apartment building would elect its own leader.
But we need a powerful communication platform that unites everyone, discusses issues, and then organizes joint efforts. This is how veteran advocacy works in America.
There are many veteran organizations there, but they all communicate with each other and unite in forums. These forums help identify problems, set tasks, and take action.
When we talk about funding, yes, money is needed. But in the U.S., most advocacy programs are done voluntarily—no one gets paid for them. Of course, some salaries may be given to event organizers, but for the most part, if veterans believe their rights are being violated, they go out and fight for them on their own time.
That is the foundation of civil society. Because if you’re not ready to stand up for your rights for free, then you don’t really need them. If you’re not willing to spend two hours of your time to improve the country, then such a civil society is worthless—it’s just a bunch of people trying to make money off a particular topic.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: You know, as I listen to you, I have a question. Can civil society and the veteran movement be a single entity?
Mykola Melnyk: Well, the veteran movement is simply a part of civil society. It just so happened that the most passionate part of civil society in 2022 went to the front. The people who had nothing to do with civil society at that moment went to Chop (Ukrainian town on Ukraine-Hungary border). Just the general population. To Chop, the Carpathians, wherever.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: But they are citizens of Ukraine.
Mykola Melnyk: Yes, but they are not civil society. You shouldn’t put everyone under one umbrella. That’s wrong. Civil society consists of people who wake up every day and think about how to spend 15 minutes of their free time improving something around them. These are the people who truly create...
Oleh Cheslavskyi: Something beyond their own backyard.
Mykola Melnyk: Something beyond their own backyard. Thank you. Sorry, I always recall the Revolution of Dignity. I don’t remember anyone there being paid a salary. Those who fought from start to finish. I’m sure there were people who received money from parties — deputies who supported the Revolution of Dignity, their assistants who were paid and performed specific functions. But 99% of the people who were there weren’t paid for it. Yet they made the revolution. They did it not for themselves, but to change the world for the better. The fact that later, those who were paid took advantage of it—other MPs who built their capital—that’s another story. But to me, civil society is just that.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: Veterans are an integral part of civil society. They’re just more active.
Mykola Melnyk: Simply put… of course. Veterans, volunteers—they are now the foundation of civil society.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: But does this foundation have potential? Politically, for Ukraine’s future?
Mykola Melnyk: If we don’t start fighting among ourselves.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: What should be done to prevent that? Where should we find a balance?
Mykola Melnyk: I’m not ready to say. It should be... Again, I don’t believe in one big, strong unifying center, but I do believe in a communication center.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: You believe in a communication center?
Mykola Melnyk: If we find some point where we can gather and solve any issue, then we can move forward. Because we need to talk, and we need to understand things correctly. You can’t just walk into a veteran community in some area and say, “Alright, we’re the top veterans here, we have an idea, let’s all gather and do this.” That doesn’t work in Ukraine, not at all. You have to talk, listen to criticism, sometimes very harsh criticism because the people involved are quite a diverse crowd. But you need to engage and convince.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: Do you think American society respects veterans because they know how to communicate?
Mykola Melnyk: Yes, a powerful force in American society is their ability to communicate. Openness is important. Focus on a specific idea is important. Accessibility to express opinions is important. Why have some of our veteran groups fallen apart? Because too quickly, someone put on a Napoleon hat and said, “I’m smart, you’re dumb, and things will never be any other way.” And this often happened without having enough experience to actually do things correctly. So, dialogue is key, as well as explaining why something needs to be done and why one should be involved.
What you can’t take away from Americans is their readiness to defend their rights. Their willingness to spend their personal time to make things better. I’ve seen plenty of Americans in Ukraine’s appeal programs who came from their own states because they believed, “We think supporting Ukraine is important. It’s a value for us.”
Oleh Cheslavskyi: Right now, you’re already involved in this movement, supporting veterans in some way. Do you have an organization?
Mykola Melnyk: This organization that I lead—it was created... again, it just so happened that I lead organizations. If we’re talking about the League of Interns, that’s an organization that was founded 25 years ago and is focused on creating new elites, on internships in government institutions. I really hope that the selection process in 2025 will have a good representation of veterans. I really hope that veterans will start entering government. Because without that, we will fail.
As for the Ukrainian Defense Forces, that’s an organization that was founded back in November 2021. It’s a patriotic organization, so to speak. It so happened that I had to lead it. And right now, we are focused on supporting the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Our guys serve in the Armed Forces and other defense units, and we try to support them financially, materially, and legally.
And I’d like to scale this effort. Scale it so that every veteran knows there’s a place they can turn to for help.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: Does it have an official structure? Is it already an NGO?
Mykola Melnyk: Yes, yes, yes.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: Can you share the details so people can support your cause?
Mykola Melnyk: Of course, gladly.
Oleh Cheslavskyi: Thank you very much for the conversation. I hope we return to all these questions. Let’s work together to make Ukraine better.
Mykola Melnyk: Thank you.